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Documentary Maker (documentarymkr) 13 pts

March 31, 2007 3:59 AM

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Confused About 24P and Video Editing Software

I've decided to buy the Canon HV20. In checking reviews I keep reading about the wonders of the 24P recording mode. I recently bought Adobe Premiere Elements 3.0, which handles HD video; if I import 24P video into that program (or any recent video editor really), when one has finished composing one's program or film and wants to save an SD MPG file, or even an HD file to the hard drive, isn't the final product saved at a standard 30 frames per second? Wouldn't the change in frames from 24 to 30, if that's required, cause a loss in quality? Is it even possible?

Suppose I want to combine 24P HD footage from the HV20 with 30 frames-per-second HD stock footage in the same film--how would that work? And what if I shoot low-light subjects in 24P (I've read that works well with this camera), and outdoors at 30 frames on the same tape; would combining those clips in the same production pose any problems?

And broadly, why is there such interest in a "film" look; aren't the colors dulled down versus video?

When I rent a standard SD DVD feature film and put it into my DVD player, is it playing back at 30 frames per second or 24?

As you can tell, I'm lost! Can you help sort it out, or point me to any articles on the subject? Thanks.

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 1, 2007 11:27 AM

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Hey, Documentary Maker.
First, I would like to so say you made a very good choice with the HV20, secondly, its nice to see someone give a detailed question as yours. Most digital questions on this site are barley even completed, and they say one thing but mean something else.

The 24p feature as you already know gives you a slightly different look and feel simulating film on your video. What's the big deal, well, for a number of reasons its just as important to set the feel and mood of your recorded coverage as the coverage content itself. Movies, Documentaries, and TV series seem to be more successful with a film texture. Game shows, informative videos, and talk shows seem to more better with a studio video look. Wild life like national geographic now seems to be presented very nicely with an HD vivid video look. I have found TV sitcoms are most successful when they have a film look to them, they seem to be taken more seriously. In the earlier days every TV program was generally shot in film, then when studio video broadcast became more main stream, the film looking format still seemed to be more successful. If programs like Hillstreet Blues, Cheers, Star Trek, or Seinfeld was recorded in a studio video look, it would have never been taken as seriously and would have not successfully lasted as along. Think about it, Sopranos in a studio video look, it would have cheapened the look, it just wouldn't of work.

For documentaries, I highly recommend the 24p frame rate. You can mix the 24p & 30p frame rate together, but your video look you present has to be justified to the message you are trying say. Even though your final edited version may all play back at 30p frame rate, the original look of 24p should still remain the same. Depending on your editing software and your final edited file format, you should have the option to record your final edited version in 24p, but I believe this would worsen your end quality as it throws detail data out as it reduces the file size. It starts getting a little complicated at this point. Whether it actually plays back in 30p or not, the main point is how you originally recorded it. The 30p play back frame rate would be better in picture quality even though you recorded it in 24p. The higher the play back frame rate the higher the resolution appears. 24p works best on high end and hi def camcorders because it has allot more video data to work with.

Low light shooting with 24p can be interesting of giving you a more enhanced film grain look as in motion pictures. The HV20 should give still give you some nice results with minimal shadow noise because of its extra packed video data in comparison to SD video.

Bottom Line: You really need to experiment with all your options before making a decision of how you are going to record your video footage and how you want it look as an end product.

Good Luck, and Happy Shooting!

Piero Foto

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 1, 2007 11:06 PM

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Hi again.
As I came across your question again, I was wondering how much knowledge you had on fps(frames per second), including fps in different video film formats, and interlaced frames etc. Below is a link that is loaded with info and hopefully will clarify some of the technical issues you have or will encounter. This link will lead you into multiple other links that are related some how or connected to your question. Its a good link to save for future use.

FPS, a measure of how much information is used to store and display motion video. The term applies equally to film video and digital video. Each frame is a still image; displaying frames in quick succession creates the illusion of motion. The more frames per second (fps), the smoother the motion appears. Television in the U.S., for example, is based on the NTSC format, which displays 30 interlaced frames per second (60 fields per second). In general, the minimum fps needed to avoid jerky motion is about 30. Some computer video formats, such as AVI, provide only 15 frames per second.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video

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Documentary Maker (documentarymkr) 13 pts

April 3, 2007 12:09 AM

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Piero, many thanks indeed!

To summarize the central points: You recommend shooting in 24p (including outdoors and in bright light?), and rendering the final work in 30p. And even though the footage is shot in 24p, but shown in 30p, the look and feel will still carry over, and will actually produce a higher quality product (in terms of the film look) than if shot originally at 30p.

I read the article you recommended and it was helpful; in that or one of the other articles it links to there's a mention of some complications in taking 24p footage and showing it at 30p. You didn't mention it specifically, but would I be right in saying that feature movies on DVD are indeed produced and shown that way--in other words, just as I mentioned at the top of this post, and how I'll plan to do it myself?

The Canon HV20 has both a 24p shooting option and a separate setting for film-like color and tonal characteristics; I'm guessing you'd recommend using the film-like setting along with the 24p mode (Canon says they can be used separately).

I shall as you suggest shoot some scenes using both 30p and 24p, and see how they look, but I'm certainly going to be leaning towards the use of 24p based on what you've said and everything I've read so far.

Thanks!

ADMINS: It was really a challenge to find these excellent question and answer pages when I came back to your main page--I'd suggest you put a prominent link there. Also, I needed to contact you about something, but the feedback and contact links don't provide a form or an e-mail address; it looks like the wrong pages are associated with those links.

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 3, 2007 1:47 AM

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Hey, D.M.
In the past a number of years ago, they used to transfer film at 24fps for broadcasting through an analog system called "telecine". This system would sync 24fps to 30fps for video TV broadcasting. The look still remained as a film look, but with video simulating film on video, its not really the same results. 24fps shot on video is a simulated and artificial film look which is not bad, but its still not film. I will admit that its definitely a nicer look than video for certain applications.

Motion pictures produced with film cameras are shot at 24fps, when the final edited version is complete to make a master for DVDs, its converted and synced to 30fps for video. The key word here is "synced". If you record at 24fps and play back the same original media source at 24fps, then a one recorded second of time plays back as one actual second of time. If you record 24fps and play the original media source back at 48fps, then two recorded seconds playing back in one second and you get double the speed for fast motion. The reverse would happen if you played back the original 24fps media source at 12fps, you then get slow motion at half the actual real time speed. So, when you "sync" one media to another it plays back as actual recorded time regardless of what the frame rate originally was. There are just to many elements mixed in a soup here to go through every detail of explanation.

The bottom line:
You really need to experiment to see how it all works and what brilliant error you encounter of maybe inventing a new technique. If the the film like color on its own seams just right for you, then shoot at 30fps, but whether the functions are used in combination or as a stand alone, the main thing is to shoot with what ever is going to make your end product perfect for you. As an artist, remember one important thing, there are no rules and you are allowed to think outside the box. That's a sign of a genius!

Good Luck!

PS: I am not quite sure if you are saying that there glitches in this site, but I only offer free advice on this site as a digital advisor. If there is any comments you would like to make about this site there are email links to the administrators of Camera HQ.

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Documentary Maker (documentarymkr) 13 pts

April 3, 2007 2:37 AM

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Thanks again.

I have one more question, and that's about purchasing the HV20. You've posted a link to a vendor called cameraaddict.com in other threads, and they've been displaying a price usually in the mid-$800 range, and well below what well-known vendors are charging. They're located in Brooklyn, and a couple of years ago when I was buying a digital camera I tried to get the very lowest price and dealt with a couple of outfits in Brooklyn and it ended up being a pretty rough experience. Have you dealt with this vendor, or do you know others who have? Can you recommend them beyond the price? I notice from their site that if anything goes wrong their return policy is a scant 7 days.

Actually, there's one more question: How long have you used the HV20? I'm curious because it's just becoming available right now, and I've only seen one in-depth online review so far.

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Al Your Pal (alyourpal) 14 pts

April 3, 2007 11:03 AM

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For online buying, be very careful. Always check with http://www.resellerratings.com/, enter the store name in the field for "Find Ratings and Reviews." Mixed reviews on cameraaddict, but generally bad. One person says associated with Bwayphoto.com, with which I had a terrible experience - they were selling gray market items, not for sale in US and no warranty, didn't say upfront and use hard sell for addons. Didn't get my problem resolved until I filed complaint with NY AG, consumer dept.

Other store review sites are not as reliable. I've never gone wrong with an online seller based on reviews from Resellerratings.

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 3, 2007 11:56 AM

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I have not dealt with cameraaddict.com, but you should always be cautious with any website online ordering. Normally when someone supplies a phone number on their site its a little more reassuring. Its always good to talk to someone before ording to feel them out.

I own a Canon miniDV, but not the HV20. If I had the HV20 I could give you some specific advice on camcorder itself but unfortunately I don't.

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 3, 2007 12:06 PM

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cameraaddict.com is closed for Passover holiday I believe, so call them on thursday April the 5th.

1-800-927-1489

I am on hold right now through their automated phone system, but I doubt its going to be answered by a rep today.

Good Luck!

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 3, 2007 12:21 PM

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According to the included accessories it doesn't look like its one those scams where they advertise a cheap price because they will sell everything alacart.

Included Accessories
- Battery Pack (with Terminal Cover)
- Compact Power Adapter
- N Stereo Video Cable
- Wireless Controller
- USB Cable
- S Component Cable
- Digital Video Solution Disk for Windows and Macintosh
- 1 Year Limited Warranty

Also when you order, I suggest a minimum 2GB SD memory card, 4GB would be better in case you run out of tape or decide to record video on the memory card itself.

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Al Your Pal (alyourpal) 14 pts

April 3, 2007 12:27 PM

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BTW: I checked their web sites: Bwayphoto and cameraaddict are literally next to each other in Brooklyn. I wouldn't trust them, probably a scam because bwayphoto is so slammed on reselleratings and the BBB. I learned the hard way dealing with Bwayphoto before I found reselleratings.com web site. The camera was for non US market - they photocopied/stapled the manual, no warranty, and none of the standard accessories or software as listed on mfg web site for "in the box." I called Canon and they were not an authorized dealer.

I live in New York and they will under no circumstances let you come by to pick up or solve problems.

Sites you can trust I've dealt with many times: tigerdirect.com; newegg.com; ecost.com; ritzcamera.com; zipzoomfly.com; and of course always a pleasure to shop at B&H (also closed for Passover)

Spend the extra $200 and get a valid US warranty, non-gray market product and NO HASSLE. FYI: If you buy with most Amex cards, they double the mfg warranty, which I believe is 1 year for the HV20; so that's 2 years. I had a problem with old hardware that mfg warranty expired and Amex replaced with no questions asked, just receipt. Awesome.

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 3, 2007 12:39 PM

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Al has made a good point.

Products without warrenties and sold as gray market are classified as import products. I have purchased a Nikkor lens that way, I got it real cheap as it had no warrenty, but I never had a lens fail on me over the past 30 years so I was not concerned. Some people buy "import" non-USA products and then get a service plan which is far better than the manufactures warranty.

If you are not comfortable with the whole idea, then shop at an authorized canon dealer, just pay the price for piece of mind.

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 3, 2007 1:04 PM

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Hey M.D.
This site here "Best Price cameras.com claims HV20 as factory new with full US warranty. Take a look!

HV20 "NEW" with full US warranty $799
http://www.bestpricecameras.com/prodetails.aspx?prodid=901938

HV20 "NEW" with full US warranty $999
Package kit - with lenses, tripod and more
http://www.bestpricecameras.com/prodetails.aspx?prodid=901943&display=2

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Al Your Pal (alyourpal) 14 pts

April 3, 2007 5:01 PM

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All I say guys is check out all ratings before you buy. They also go by inifinitiphoto.com: http://www.resellerratings.com/store/Best_Price_Cameras_6

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 3, 2007 5:23 PM

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Hey, M.D.

The additional package kits that you can add to your HV20 can be useful if you don't have any accessories yet, but you can also buy all your accessories alacart so you get exactly what you need.

Keep in mind that a good video tripod has either a friction head or even better is the fluid head for smooth camera panning and tilting movements during recording, you will get more professional looking results. A monopod is great for hand held shooting, it gives you a much more stable shot than free hand shooting. You can use a monopod while sitting or standing, its better than trying to lean against the wall, or leaning on a rail or table, its perfect for long shooting events. A monopod is very portable like a telescopic cane.

If you use a telephoto conversion lens, then you must use a tripod or monopod. The image stabilization is only going help so much for extreme zooming. Without a tripod or monopod when you are zoomed in at more than 20x optical, you get results like you are swaying at sea with the waves.

Monopods:
http://www.amazon.com/b?ie=UTF8&node=499314

http://www.fullcompass.com/brand/BOG/Camera-MonoPods.html

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 3, 2007 5:34 PM

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Don,
Another important thing to keep in mind, audio sound recording.

I am suggesting a wireless mic system as another option for external mics because it can work well in recording distance sounds. If your documentaries include people talking, the lapel mic(Lavaliere) can be placed on your subjects lapel/collar area. This will assure that the surrounding sounds and noises do not drown out, muffle, or over power your subjects voice. The Lavaliere mic is a miniature mic which is descrete looking with a transmitter that is usually clipped to the waist area or placed in pocket. The reciver part is plugged into the camera, so this will allow you to record audio in a far distance in the audience like on a balcony level in a concert hall and record her voice as if she was standing next to you.

There are different models of wireless systems, some are made for better distance and more reliable signal strength. You should base the signal strength required by at least doubling the distance you actually need to be more reassuring in covering you for better signal transmission.

Some wireless mic systems come with both a hand held mic and a Lavaliere mic, including transmiter and receiver. Some systems allow you to use multiple mics. They are very easy to set up, you just need to flick a switch on the transmitter and recever so they match up frequencies and you are ready to go. Having the option of selecting a different frequency is good so that you change it any time you feel that one signal frequency is better than another for that location.

Reviews have not been the best for Nady and Sony models, they can be cheaper and would be also considered more of a toy. Azden seems to be very good brand in wireless mics, they are taken more seriously.

Wireless camcorder Microphones:
http://www.nextag.com/wireless-camcorder-microphone/search-html

This site here is very good for advanced/pro videographers.
The "VideoGuys.com"
http://www.videoguys.com/azden.htm

Here is a movie editing software that can be added to your computer in addition to what you may already have.

Editing software option: "Intermediate level"
http://www.bestpricecameras.com/prodetails.aspx?prodid=193405

Good Luck, and Happy shooting!

Signing off.
Piero Foto

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Al Your Pal (alyourpal) 14 pts

April 3, 2007 5:41 PM

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Thanks for the advice on the tripod/monopod and sound system. I think I've decided to get the HV20. Hope I can get the footage into Premier.

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 3, 2007 5:50 PM

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One more thing everyone.
If you can click all the helpful thumbs up at the bootom of my responses that would be great, I have already done that for Documentary Maker, and Al.

Thanks!

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 3, 2007 5:59 PM

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Congratulations Al, you are a Pal.
You made a good choice.

Russ asked if he would loose quality switching from a Sony HDR SR1 HD camcorder to the Canon HV20. Maybe you guys can reassure him that the HV20 is the way to go, especially for Mac. Let him know that you guys decided on the HV20. A few simple words would be great.

Thanks!

Question Page:
http://www.digitalcamera-hq.com/camcorders/sony-hdr-sr1_question.html?qid=11214

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Documentary Maker (documentarymkr) 13 pts

April 4, 2007 3:27 AM

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Al, thank you. That's truly excellent information; you're quite right about sticking to reputable vendors like Newegg and Amazon. Truthfully I had a woozy feeling just visiting the Web page of that vendor I mentioned above. And I followed up and checked the reseller ratings for the second one Piero mentioned here: a rating of 0.15 out of 10!! With a rating like that they should probably be out doing community service.

So I'll add resellerratings.com to my favorites. The Amex information was very helpful too; I had to use their "disputed charge" service to reverse a $40 charge for a fake helicopter gadget I bought at Christmas that wouldn't work at all--and the vendor was recommended by a well-known tech site (they had no problem with their review product from the site, but I did when I ordered too close to Christmas). So I've used that service successfully, but I wasn't aware of the two-year warranty coverage--so thanks for that too.

Piero, I have a basic tripod...but I've never heard of a monopod, so I'm going to check into a better tripod, and a monopod too. You've been really helpful. And now we both know of a couple of "too-good-to-be-true" low-price vendors to avoid too.

This has been one productive thread!

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Al Your Pal (alyourpal) 14 pts

April 4, 2007 1:15 PM

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You're welcome. As per Piero's mention re: tripods - a friend of mine says he got a decent fluid head tripod for about $100 + a padded bag for $25 at B&H; sturdy, enough weight to add stability and silky smooth pan/tilt. I've tried using a regular camera tripod meant for photography and it's very jerky, good only for static shots. They go up from there to over $5,000.

As for AMEX: Check online for your type or call, not sure if all double the warranty.

Good luck.

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 6, 2007 2:20 PM

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I am going to feed info responses as I come across anything important.

Read the info in link on miniDV tapes.
In general I know that emulsion formulas can be different from one type or brand to another, but this just confirms the exact difference for HD tapes:

Its best to find one good brand and stick with it. You will get longer cam head life in the log run, plus it will easier to maintain consistant picture results. HD miniDV tapes are generally loaded with more metal in the emulsion, more metal, faster head wear.

Maxel HDV tapes is superior.
http://att.macrumors.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=70748&d=1174660867

I also want to share with you guys my first movie cam I got when I was a film student. Back in '78, I had a Canon 1014XL-S movie film cam, it was like having a cam comparable to today's Canon XL2 DV video.
Check it out
http://www.retrothing.com/2005/11/canons_best_sup.html

The time lapse features are cool for animation. There are features and functions in this cam that are not even available in today's camcorders. By the way, I am holding it in my hand as I am writing this response. Many great memories. I still have the film editing equipment and Multi track sound-on sound movie projectors. I have used it professionally until around 1992.

Check out the impressive specs
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/cine/data/1979_1014xls_s.html
http://www.canon.com/camera-museum/camera/cine/data/1979_1014xls.html

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 6, 2007 5:45 PM

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Here is a correction update.

The HV20 records in 24p(fps-frames per second) and it is stored in a 60i stream for NTSC(North America) (likewise, 25p is recorded but stored as 50i for PAL format (other countries). It is done that way to work with existing standards.

The 24p recording is only stored in 60i and seems to be a desirable choice by many reviews I have read. 30p would be standard playback frame speed rate.

24p(fps) is what's used in the professional motion picture industry. Many people have been waiting a long time for this feature in a video cam.

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Al Your Pal (alyourpal) 14 pts

April 6, 2007 8:14 PM

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Thanks for the the link re: HDV tapes. I've become unshure the more I research HD cameras; some reviews and specs mention the advantage of recording HD on regular DV tapes, then others mention HDV tapes. There is definitively a price difference. Have you guys seen an HD comparison using the two?

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 6, 2007 9:01 PM

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If you don't see any quality difference between the two tapes, Then one thing thing for sure, it can't hurt your heads with using SD tapes. Better quality tapes usually have a stronger base and a better magnetic coating for repetitive use and less video drop outs. If you plan to download your video, you can use the tape a couple of times, then chuck it. SD videos tapes are pretty cheap. I have been using Fuji for about 20 years, I get real nice clean video results.

On the flip side of the coin, if you can get about about 5 good recordings out of one HD/HDV tape, then your cost per tape recording goes right down. It will work out around the same price as SD.

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 6, 2007 9:14 PM

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Technically, you can get many recordings and play uses from a tape, but it deteriorates after each time you record or play back until it looks like a VHS tape that's been well used from BlockBuster rentals. The tape stretches, warps, and the magnetic coating wears out.

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Alisa 2 pts

April 6, 2007 10:18 PM

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Piero,

What a great thread this is. I have a few questions and thought it may be fitting to post them here since this thread has drifted a bit from its original topic.
I just recevie my new HV20 on Tuesday and was excited to finally have a chance to check it out. There are a few things that are a bit problematic though, that I was unaware of before I bought it and want to know if there is a way around them.

1) audio - i have a professional mic package of a shotgun and wireless mics, and a 2 channel xlr adapter i was able to attach via the rca mic input. But in testing it today, I was only able to moniter the audio level of both channels combined. There does not seem to be a 2 channel view option available. This makes TRUE monitoring a problem if I do use both mics as I had planned to. Any way to fix this?

1a) Also in the audio department - it seems that in the 2 HDV modes, there is only the option for 12 bit audio recording and that in order to get the standard 16 bit option, you need to shoot in SD. Is this the case or am I missing something (I hope I am as it seems shooting anything 12bit is substandard for broadcast quality projects.)

2) I was reading your information about shooting in 24fps. I admit I am still confused as there are 4 options for shooting with the HV20: SD, SD Widescreen, HDV, HDV 24fps. Ideally I would like to shoot HDV 24fps, but I will most likely be needing to incorporate found footage that will be on different formats (DV, VHS, PAL, NTSC) and was told by a post house, the safest way to shoot would be 60i. Although I was still not sure if that meant HDV or SD, and whether that meant 24fps was out of the question. If I do shoot in SD that would solve my 16bit sound issue, BUT it defeats the purpose of buying the HV20 for the HDV 24p capabilities.

3) Tape stock - so if Maxell is the best in your mind, where do the Sony tapes fall on the scale? (and on a side note, I notice you mentioned shooting on the SD card in a previous post on this thread, but I didnt think you could shoot movie footage on the SD card with the HV20.)

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 8, 2007 4:38 PM

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Hi, Alisa.
We can start another great thread. Its best to post a new question so that it will easier for others to find in case they have some of the same issues or for anyone else that wishes to respond to.

In the meantime I will look into some info for you.

I will be looking out for your question.

Thanks!

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Alisa 2 pts

April 8, 2007 4:59 PM

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Thank you Piero. By the way, i found out that the HDV recording mode DOES shoot audio in 16bit. But look forward to the rest of my questions being (hopefully) answered.
Best,
Alisa

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 8, 2007 5:17 PM

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Alisa.
Your question can be posted at the top of this page where is says:
Have a question about the HV20?

Thanks!

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Piero Foto (ifotomedia) 7096 pts

April 9, 2007 11:50 AM

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Here are some links that contains excellent info and reviews on (HD)video.

CML is a place for professional cinematographers to talk and exchange ideas about cinematography.

30p or 60i topic:
http://www.cinematography.net/Pages%20DW/30por60i.htm
Home page:
http://www.cinematography.net/index.htm
All video topics:
http://www.cinematography.net/video%20toc.htm

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gs 0 pts

December 17, 2007 9:19 PM

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Cameraaddict people are
LIARS .... BAIT and SWITCH .... CROOKS
I bet anything that the good reviews on other sites are from company guys.
Its the usual experience for everyone...order and get a mail to call...then the sales rep who is not only rude (understatement) but also one who threatens.
After i asked them to cancel the order because he lied to me that cacorder doesnt come with a battery (imagine that...do they think ppl r idiots? and buy stuff w/o knowing?) he asked me to apologize (when he was the one who was rude) or he'll keep the phone down and charge 180$ (for nothing!!!)

i suspect they are just there to harass people...a set of SAIDSTS or worse IDENTITY THIEVES bcause if its just money they want to cheat on they could have let the order thro' and overcharged.....but they make u call and talk utter rubbish on the other end w/o respect for age or gender.
Its HORRID.

Lesson: THERE IS NO FREE LUNCH...
dont even dream of getting something for less than 70% its value.
ONLY BUY FROM REPUTED sources.

They have been reported to BBB for fraud.
also check out http://www.complaintsboard.com/complaints/cameraaddictcom-c8671.html

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A	is outstanding and exceptional, rated in the top 10% of camcorders.
B	means they are good, with some standout features.
C	means they are mediocre, and probably more trouble than they are worth.
D & F	mean they are absolutely awful or old. Avoid at all costs.

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